Quasi-identity observations
Contents |
General comments
Alien5 (LSE): By experience, I can say that QI relations can exist for a long time, especially, if both partners interact only periodically. They rarely pressure each other's painful functions, understanding over small issues can be attained, but the approach to global goals is completely different.
Alexb (EII): In relations of LII-ILI I see the same kind of dynamics as in my relations with IEI: for as long as we don't have to discuss and resolve important issues, our relations are quite comfortable. If we attempt it, we encounter major differences in our outlooks and life values. This leads to accumulation of covert aggression and frustration within both of us.
Deyatinor (ILE): It happens that you send out a "request" from your suggestive function, while the "response" of your quasi-identical is often inadequate and falls on your most painful vulnerable function, prompting irritation or even an offense. You get a sense that whatever you say or do, most of it will be received and interpreted wrongly by your quasi-identical. It is very difficult to learn anything from one another in this manner.
Serile (ILE): Quasi-identity falls under "extroverted" type of relations according to Gulenko, that is, the "atmosphere" in this pair becomes better with external influences such at going out, inviting other people over, or even traveling. I have been in a relationship with my LIE for 6 years up to date. We've made it work.
Adrian (ILI): You can live together. Most certainly. Finding common language, however, that's another matter and not an easy one. I have to explain everything to my quasi-identical LII in a very structured manner, refraining from associatively changing from one topic to another - otherwise the reaction is quite painful. Thing is that I don't always monitor what I say, and then my QI partner starts misunderstanding me. This need for constant control of what you say and think makes communication with QI partners rather straining and draining of energy. Their "parallel" replies that seem to miss the point start to frustrate, as does me having to force my speech to be more structured and rational.
Refi (ILE): One of my quasi-identicals has bee a lifelong friend. I've known him as long as I can remember. We've always experienced some kind of ... friction. Although our interests are extremely similar, we seem to have some kind of perpetual misunderstanding going on, with him having the effect of a "wet blanket" on my state. I always feel some kind of implicit criticism behind his actions/words and I think it's draining to have him around me for longer than a few days. I have also considered him to be less intelligent because he just doesn't get what i'm getting at, despite knowing at the same time that his IQ is about as high as mine.
sarinana (EIE): Yea it's kind of I don't hate him and I am sure he doesn't hate me too. And I think he is a good person beside that but fuck ... we just can't discuss anything with each other. Our discussions always end up with a huge irritation unless we switch from subject to subject without really analyzing them... The thing is I am in a relationship with him. And that makes me want him to show at least some genuine interest in the things I am interested in. I would show it. And that's why I kept explaining to him. But I feel like our relationship is getting nowhere... kind of like time stands still... and at the same time I can't just end it. Apart these never ending discussions there is no other reason. So I just avoid meeting him and hope maybe it will just vanish away with time... cause I don't wanna hurt him since he disses all his ex girlfriends. And I don't want him to diss me afterward.
Wic (LIE): The main "hemorrhoid" in QI relations is the difference in Rationality/Irrationality. Everything else is minor in comparison. Consensus is established easily. Static/dynamic differences between QI partners are very helpful here – functions of the vital block, that mostly evaluate the situation, fall on the functions of the mental block of your partner, which are characterized by adjustment and adaptation. But the rational/irrational aspect – here it's complete achtung, totally different approaches to organization of life, which results in considerable difficulties in taking on common activities. When planning and brainstorming, the irrational partner says "we'll do approximately this, and then later, going by the situation, we'll do something else", while the rational partner needs a complete step-by-step explication of what will be done and how. During collisions of these approaches, the rational partner gets worried by the fixed-ness of the plan, by the limits imposed on the possible courses of development of the situation. The rational partner is afraid of uncertainty, ambiguity, he fears to leave something out of consideration, to be unable to handle too many changes.
QI as "benefit" relations: In his article "Classification of Intertype Relations According to Their Purpose and Energy Dynamics", Victor Gulenko has noted that quasi-identical relations approximate those of benefit, where each person views the other as their "benefactor". Thus, one's quasi-identical in the beginning may seem to be gifted, talented, strong in some area where one is weak, admirable in some way, and thus attractive and interesting to get to know them. However, with more intensive and less casual interaction, it becomes clear that they somehow fall short of one's ideal. Thus, it could be said that quasi-identicals may exhibit similar responses and behaviors that are characteristic of "beneficiary→benefactor" relations - initial admiration mixed in with later disappointments. Similar to "beneficiary→benefactor", the creative function of each quasi-identical falls onto the ignoring function of the other - thus creative input of one simply gets ignored by the other, and both end up putting in too much effort into trying to convince the other. Unlike benefit relations, leading function of one does not "feed into" the hidden agenda of the other, thus it could be said that quasi-identity is even "less than" the typical "beneficiary→benefactor" interactions.
LII-ILI
Lyoka (ILI): One of my friends if of type LII. Talking to her is very interesting because we are often able to tell each other of something new. On some issues, however, there is a sense that I don't need to know, that this is something that is already too obvious to be brought up. At times I have to re-ask her about things that are very clear to her; I don't always catch on what our conversation is about ... What I like in LIIs is that they can state the very same idea in a very "intelligent" manner, but this same quality is also what is annoying about them. Another thing I like about them is their thoroughness and ability to see many alternatives. In many cases, this is a useful quality. Problems arise over the vulnerable function. Here, much will be perceived as a person's weakness, and subsequently irritation will start to accumulate. One time an LII acquaintance of mine has acted in a way that I thought was cold-hearted towards friend of mine. We continued to stay in touch. Our communication runs as usual, but somehow it's lacking in substance.
Overall, my subjective perception of this type of relationship – there is no intensity, no "highlights" or "sweet raisins" in this cookie, although there is potential for learning something new from one another.
Boojum (LII): What attracts me in ILIs is that they think through everything that they will do in the future, that they thoroughly think about any information. My ILI acquaintance is almost always in a contemplative state of mind, which creates a peaceful and calm background for our interaction, which isn't bad.
Sveta (LII): I've been dating a guy of type ILI for the past couple of years. Both he and I periodically felt some discomfort from each other. He tried to be tolerant and accept me the way that I am, and agreed to certain compromises. I behaved in the most natural manner for myself and sometimes I would splash out. Eventually we stopped dating, but we have kept warm feelings for one another. As it was mentioned previously about two paths of development of quasi-identical relations: hits on vulnerable function, or stagnation – all of this is true.
Roza_red (LII): We've found a way to avoid the discomfort associated with QI relations with my ILI friend. We try to see one another in presence of other people. There we can interact amicably. More frequent interaction leads to greater misunderstanding and a wish to "shake up" my friend and "awaken" her from her slumber. I think she's caught on to this, too, and disappears for a while. Qualities that annoy me most in ILIs 1) their irrationality, I never know what may come into their mind in the next minute 2) introversion, which feels 10x heavier than mine 3) uncertainty and excessive deliberation such that I have to take on making the bulk of decisions.
goldbison (ILI): My TIM is ILI, my husband's – LII. The main thing is to learn how to derive benefit from these relations. In general, the negative sides of quasi-identical relations apply to any regular relationship that hasn't been carefully thought out and built and in which partners don't have serious common goals. Yes, it can be difficult for us with LIIs. They (unintentionally) restrict our social circle. But at the same time, from this an ILI can learn to not squander his time but allocate it more carefully. Mutual introversion lets itself be known. At social gatherings he doesn't easily join conversations with other people and neither do I, but fortunately other people will approach us. If an ILI allows an LII to get close to him, then he may grow to sincerely admire him, to periodically help him in life and with realization of some of his ideas, at the same time be able to keep his own freedom and independence. LII closes distance with ILI with all his kindness and an amazing naiveté. They make an excellent pair. We have two children. In six years of being together we haven't had a single serious quarrel and thoughts of divorce never crossed our minds. Work on yourselves, everything else will follow.
intp123 (ILI): My LII wife has exclaimed one day "... this logic of his, that borders on madness, I've never seen before. It also seems like he is completely lacking in emotional intelligence." The phrase "emotional intelligence" possibly constitutes an integral and important aspect of their duals ESEs. Would be interesting to hear more about this from LIIs themselves. At present day my impression is that the main thing in these relations to have common goals. And of course – love.
RuslMax (LII): I am currently majoring in mathematics and have to interact with one ILI. As is described in relations of quasi-identity we don't understand each other's explanations very well.
Keyzet (ILI): My boyfriend is of TIM LII has a maniacal focus on logic and common sense. When we were dating, everything was perfect. It was always interesting to talk to him and nice to just be around each other. That was until we tried to build a life together.
For me excessive focus on domestic life is tantamount to death. For him – a foundation and an essential aspect of life. His submersion into it didn't leave any air and space for me. He was pulling me with him and did not accept any objections, as he said – that's the way it should be. The way I was brought up endowed me with a trait that I don't obey anyone, especially if they speak crudely, so often we have disputes over my unwillingness to do something.
He has plans and goals for everything. All the actions are evaluated by how logical or illogical they are at the moment. For me, his logic feels too dry; he's like a robot programmed for certain actions. I don't particularly like building plans and don't have any concrete goals in life.
He is constantly moving forward, socializing and mingling with people, thinking about his interests. While I keep lingering over the same spot, warming up a long time and waiting for that impulse, that "kick" would finally make me take off and engage. Having multiple social contacts is tiring for me, neither do I have the desire to search for benefits in everything. I'm fine as long as nobody interferes with what I'm doing. He always has some projects and runs out of free time, while I don't see any sense in this. I think if you have the desire, you can always find the time.
He is constantly pressuring me to do things in specific way, explaining why it's so important. I have terrible contradictions inside me when I'm require to do something without me having any desire for it. What come out of this is a sense of permanent oppression and a sense of guilt that I am at fault again, that I did nothing, that I didn't take up and occupy myself with anything, etc. As a result, when I lost my job I didn't try to find a new one for several months. His finds this very unpleasant when he is working, expanding his efforts, while I'm not doing anything. He believes that if he is doing something, that is working, then I shouldn't be sitting around. In response, I lost all the aspiration to do anything at all – I need support, not orders.
He sees me as an emotionally unstable person. Says that emotions control me, and should be the other way around – I should control my emotions. Says that my actions are illogical, that logic isn't inherent to me at all. Blatantly distinguishes himself, that he is so logical, so correct, such a great specialist, thinks of himself as almost a godly figure. At my problem he looks like they are trivialities and nonsense and doesn't hide this attitude, says that I have to resolve my problems on my own.
Finally we had a break in our relationship on his initiative (although in my mind I was already ready for it and willing myself, but couldn't make the first step). He does not like my lack of initiative, my laziness, unwillingness to do anything, and my fruitless relation to his family/friends/acquaintances (that I don't run around them, striking up contacts and extending offers). I don't like his coldness and dryness (though he says that he loves me) and his desire to lead and direct me and not accept me as I am.
Radar (ILI): I was friends with an LII girl at university for a while. In some respect we complemented one another very well. She was more thorough and pedantic with her schoolwork while I was more cursory. While I was satisfied with receiving a passing grade, she would spend more time trying to solve problems in various different ways to find the most nontrivial solution. Outside of school I would take on the leading role, call her up, organize our social outings, etc. A few years after we graduated we stopped meeting. I lacked in positives coming from her. When we saw each other she would sit in the corner and monotonously start telling stories – how some co-worker died from cancer and how her entire department went to her funeral, how someone was killed in all the details, how her supervisor got robbed. After listening to all of this, I no longer wanted to take her out but instead reduce our interaction to a minimum.
Leroy (ILI): I think well of LIIs and have two friends of this type. At first I would try to play an ESE for them, but after some time I lost all inspiration to do so. I started being myself more, but everything turned out ok, our relations didn't become any less friendly. Our friendship has been tested time and time again, and they have not failed me. Initially I thought these guys might be ILIs, so much of our behavior is alike, but then when I inquired about the motives for their behavior, I heard something that was completely incomprehensible for me. Turned out that our motivations and life goals are very different, we have completely different system of values, and the deeper you dig – the more differences will surface. This doesn't impede our friendship much, but a deeper relationship would be very difficult.
IEI-EII
DmitryS (SLE): I know an IEI-EII couple. Both of them needed to get married, the age has come, and their social circle and intellectual levels were comparable. They have been together for 10 years now and have two children. Everything in their family is normal, as "with everyone else". But the IEI smiles less and less often. Over the past couple of years I haven't seen her happy. More like – everything is normal, and this is it. Her EII partner has remained the same, perhaps he's gotten quieter.
JLeN (EIE): My IEI friend recently divorced her EII husband. I've noticed that she has become much less cheerful within this marriage. Her love and enjoyment of life has diminished considerably, and this has negatively affected her children going by her words. Quasi-identical relations are not particularly deep and lack in mutual understanding. They are ok for light conversation, chatting online, playing games, light entertainment, but it's better that you don't see one another every day.
Phili (IEI): I've had varied experiences with my quasi-identicals. Some experience were of borderline contempt and outbursts of criticisms and underrating of my intelligence and my abilities. One EII in a fit of arrogance and contempt has exclaimed to a group of people we were with: "I question the judgement of anyone who takes him seriously." In other EII's I've met loyal and compassionate friends, sensitive souls, interesting and intelligent conversation partners. I think subtypes have some effect on which way our interaction goes. I've had the easiest time with ethical subtype. The sudden rebukes and reproaches in my address came almost always from the intuitive subtype of EII. When this happened I've always felt blindsided by these sudden outbursts of aggression from them; nevertheless, their criticisms felt empty and misconstrued. It was simply that this person was suddenly angry with me, and I had no idea why they were angry and wrote it off to them being in a bad mood. Otherwise I have many times admired EII's analytical and verbal abilities - which to me always seem to be above average - how effortlessly and naturally they catch the gist of things, how easily and eloquently they state their opinions, with the crystalline definiteness and clarity of their self-expression (they are the true poets, even though this is usually said of IEIs). I find it very easy to talk to them, because they are also of intuitive type and quickly catch all the implicit associations and then contribute something of their own. That's why initially I think that they are very intelligent. Though, I've seen EIIs to fall for the same pitfall as I do and base too much of their reasoning on ideological opinions and theory, without having any real life, first-hand experience with what they are talking about.
Something I didn't like about EIIs was how they will try to catch the common (shared) group sentiments and then profess these as their own opinions. It feels like they want to support everyone, while casting aside the responsibility of taking sides and committing to anyone in particular. This, to me seems like they try too hard to become accepted and liked by everyone at the expense of being sincere. Sometimes I protest again what I see in them as self-righteousness, arrogance, infallible confidence in their own opinions that they state like it's a fact, single-track black-and-white thinking, and inclination to disregard logic if it conflicts with the "ethical" hierarchy of personal relationships. And how they use their friendships to shield and protect themselves against any criticisms. Of course, it's very difficult for us to influence and change each other's opinions.
Elly (EII): My TIM is EII and I've been living with my IEI partner for over 4 years. Much in these relations depends on the willingness of both partners to build their relationship, on their sense of responsibility and their personal maturity. My IEI partner is very attentive and responsible in matters than concern our family and children. He has not let me down neither by word nor by deed. To add to this, both of us are well-adjusted and well-adapted in social, financial, and professional sense (at least as much as this is possible for introverted ethical intuitives). Both of us are typical representatives of our types.
Though each of us travels in parallel in our professional lives, there is little conflict in our relationship. We have attained an understanding and are willing to help one another. Each of us does in own way: IEI by his non-traditional views and suggestions, and I – by my talent for analysis and my systematic and consistent approach. I try to be calm when I see my IEI partner is relaxing and sitting around not doing anything, even though this sight in our small living space frustrates and irritates me greatly. In myself, I can observe some self-dualization into type LSE. But when I'm occupied by my own things often I don't care whether he is also occupied or doing nothing. And the famous mood swings! Sometimes he looks so dissatisfied and angry (and I usually take this in my address and feel like it is my fault). Then suddenly he's back to his normal pleasant state. These changes are completely unpredictable for me.
A major advantage of this marriage over my marriage to an ESI: my IEI partner doesn't try to control me over everything. He simply trusts me! For this I am much grateful to him.
We experience difficulties with sensing. Each of us wants someone else to pay attention to his problems and troubles; each wants to be taken care of and provided for. Each of us still desires to have a partner with strong sensing, who seems reliable, confident and strong, and more adept at orienting within and handling everyday life. But from my IEI I cannot even expect a clear word, only smiles. But once he has decided on something, he will follow it through. He tries to not let me down over major things, but in details it is difficult to coordinate and achieve anything.
We also experience differences in Rationality/Irrationality. For instance, I know how to cook well, but my IEI partner is unpredictable in his food preferences. I can prepare some dish and then end up eating it alone because he only wants to eat crackers with some cheese that evening. At first I was even offended that he would turn it down, but eventually I stopped giving it so much importance. Now I prepare food for myself and let my IEI husband decide whether he wants to join me. Still, I have an image in my head of one family that eats dinner together – I am the keeper of the household after all.
On occasion he allows himself for some extravagant behavior and an emotional shake-up, but this happens rarely in a partnership with an EII. I have an impression that the IEI becomes more responsible and protective next to me. The IEI becomes more independent, learns how to handle resources responsibly. Perhaps the EII-female + IEI-male relations are more successful in the long term.
We've found a form of pleasant interaction – after the working week, on Fridays we go out to the local coffee shops. This ritual already exists for 2 years, and allows us, two introverts, to interact more with the outside world. Because on typical workday each of us comes home and goes to sit at his or her own computer. The initiator of his idea was IEI, while I have supported it and have already grown used to this routine – not all life should be work.
I should add that we have met one another at a relatively mature age, 39 and 45, and each has had very varied life experience. Together we have overcome many difficulties. Perhaps this is the reason that we don't have many conflicts in our relationship.
Milolika (IEI): I've been together with my EII for about a year. Some advised me to not continue these relations, but I feel we have a peaceful and calm relationship where nobody pressures anyone else.
My main problem with my quasi-identicals is that I don't feel that I can depend on them. He doesn't offer anything himself in terms of real life undertakings and projects, but will with enthusiasm support my proposals. There is no passion between us – yes, he will support me, but everything is kind of too formal and even-going. At the same time, we connect over some common interests and can talk for hours.
I also don't feel strong support in sensing matters from the EII, for example in making major purchases. I understand that with SLE I would have been more protected in such matters. Around EIIs I feel like I don't want to leave the responsibility to someone else – I want to become more self-sufficient, more decisive, more caring and tolerant. I try to overcome the weaknesses inherent to my type.
Another issue I have with EIIs is that I always feel that they are braking and stalling before making decisions. While I have already decided upon a hundred different things, the EIIs are still talking things over, discussing and rehashing, and even then they are still apprehensive to undertake anything.
Here is a list of qualities that imo EIIs and IEIs like and dislike in one another:
- IEIs like in EIIs - their loyalty and reliability, for the doubtful IEI it is good to feel that there is someone nearby who won't abandon or betray them; their kindness, reserve unobtrusiveness; EII's ability to empathize, to listen to another person's troubles and worries, let them cry on their shoulder and offer a kind word, which is very much needed by the IEIs; both EIIs and IEIs like to participate in discussions of intellective and general life topics, due to this they are excellent conversation partners for one another; a striving and desire for all that is beautiful, thoughtful, kind, and enlightened, IEIs themselves appreciate such things and share such inclinations with the EIIs.
- IEIs dislike in EIIs - passivity that they demonstrate in real life situations which an SLE would have resolved immediately; excessive gullibility, they are too trusting of other people and assume too much good in them; resignation to their circumstances, a kind of infantility in this respect, a belief that one must endure through all the hardships and continue to patiently "carry one's cross"; difficulty in accessing their inner world, sometimes cold harsh manner of communication; excessive meticulousness in carrying out their work, and expectation of the same from others; their moralizing and instructional mini-speeches intended to educate and remodel others
- EIIs like in IEIs - their light and cheerful manner of communicating; ability to improve the mood, even of their EII partner; ability to get along well with other people, to find an approach towards the soul of EII; their aesthetic appreciation and sense of taste; their ability to discuss extensive topics such as existentialism or what is beauty; emotional sensitivity, empathy, ability to inspire those who have been let down and humiliated; desire to save the world and make it better
- EIIs dislike in IEIs - their carelessness, instability, lack of punctuality; that they can be spendthrifts, don't know how to handle money well; excessive emotionality and mood swings; laziness, postponing work and chores until later or moving this responsibility onto someone else's shoulders; sometimes bombastic behavior that goes outside of what is permissible for the EII
Ipuska (IEI): it eventually becomes boring for me around EIIs … they seem somehow "too apropos" or something …
Elly13 (EII): There is a lack of understanding, but it is surmountable if you learn and take into account at least the basics of each psychotype. IEI is indeed lazy. This irritates me. He must be strongly motivated to act with energy and enthusiasm. That is, this must coincide with his system of values, plans, and his unconscious flow of thoughts. To force the IEI to do something is impossible. Some days I am strongly annoyed by this, but what is there to do? He cannot do anything with regularity. I can only ignore his desk with a pile of dirty cups and apple stumps.
Overall, this kind of existence runs in parallel. What saves us is clear definition of boundaries, zones, territories, mine-yours, etc. Then I can stop thinking about what he does in his space.
We also have a different approach to spending money. IEI can spontaneously purchase something expensive, while EII is economical and judicious with finances. We've found a certain middle line. Each of us has certain personal budget, and makes certain monetary contribution for the family. If we start a joint project, we talk over the expenses ahead of time and keep to our word. He pays rent for our apartment – I pay for food and other household expenses. IEI knows precisely what his responsibilities are, with the rest of the money he can do as he wishes. I take care of the household, make sure that we have enough produce and supplies. I don't need to ask him for money to make my purchases (but if I need to borrow a little, he will gladly give it of course). With his remaining money he sometimes purchases presents for me and our daughter and takes us out to restaurants on Fridays. I, of course, decide for myself what I want to do with my remaining budget, what I want to purchase for myself, pay for my classes or save it, and I don't need to beg or report before anyone.
All of our strategic major expenses we discuss beforehand and establish some kind of an agreement based on the necessities of each of us.
In general, it's like the descriptions for this type of relationships – parallel existence. But we also intersect enough. Here the main principle is mutual respect. Both partners need to maintain it, then this relationship is possible.
Gabriela (EII): I drew the unlucky ticket and fell in love with my quasi-identical. We have been together for 2 years. We argue frequently and over small things. His irrationality frustrates me a lot – is there any way to make the IEI keep to his promises? I am confident that he will do what he has promised if it is substantial, but over smaller things – it's horrible. But for me this is also important.
Smurf (IEI): Good day. I wanted to share my experience living with my EII partner. We've been living together for a bit over a year now. The first half a year of our life together was pure hell – it took us a while to coordinate the responsibilities around the house. I had to help him organize his household and give him a make-over, purchase new clothing and throw away everything from his old life. We would go shopping together, clean our apartment together, cook together. Within a year I started to recognize a new person in my EII, seeing the man who is truly attractive and caring. By my side, my EII has become stronger. In the course of this past year I've become very tired, but I can see that my sincere efforts have not been in vain.
IEE-EIE
El Dorado (IEE): From personal experience, these relations are good at a distance. You can make friends, but living together is complicated – EIE will lack in "strong hand", predictability, pre-planning. I constantly run into problems with them of the type: "you promised–but didn't do it". While I become tired of the emotions that the EIE at times creates out of nowhere, on empty space. I start wishing for tranquility and peacefulness in my relations, but for the EIE this is boring. This may not apply to all EIEs, but this is how it went in my relationships. Additionally, both people here are of intuitive types - both can come up with a myriad of suggestions, but there is no one around to actuate them.
Nats (IEE): The most straining aspect of these relations is the pathos that seemingly comes from nowhere: there are too many emotions that seem too strong and not appropriate to the situation. The EIE is waiting for a lively response, he teases and prods, while I usually don't have such strong emotional responses to the same situations. I can only nod and say "uhu", by which the EIE is ultimately dissatisfied. The EIE is ready to brightly demonstrate his devotion, to go for sacrifices, and expects the same from his partner. When the EIE is frustrated or upset by something, he actively emotes, and I have a desire to calm him down, however, he most likely wants someone else to emote together with him, to share his moods and his state. Everyday life is not easy either. First I have to get myself together, and then motivate him somehow. In these relations (in my case it was a friendship) there is no ease and effortlessness.
Yanaell (EIE): @Nats, that's not quite it. What is needed is not calming him down or sharing his state but an UNDERSTANDING of why such reaction is taking place – going into it without dismissing the cause as something insignificant. I wouldn't say LSIs and other strong Ti types emote together with someone, but they don't view EIE's emotions as something inappropriate or inadequate to the situation unlike the IEEs.
Yanaell (EIE): My relations with IEEs have never progressed very far. They were sufficiently painless due to the fact that it quickly becomes apparent that there is a certain line that should not be crossed. We didn't clash over our values too much because there was mutual realization that understanding is lacking, and is not expected to arrive in the near future, thus we tiptoed around each other's deeper questions and issues. Both of us maintains a certain distance and an appropriate depth to our conversation.
Friendship at a level of talking about nothing, having some fun in the company of other people, is quite possible. Go a little deeper than this and understanding ends there. When you share something candid and personal with the IEE, attempt to talk about topics more exciting than the weather, it causes an amusing reaction - it is as if the person sees that his conversation partner has blurted out something barbaric, and he tries to smooth out this moment, pretends that he didn't notice or didn't understand and hides it behind an expecting polite smile, tries to translate everything into a joke, to reduce the pathos and smooth out the atmosphere. Basically any honest reaction to anything (which come from EIE's base Fe, evaluations) causes a similar response, as if it's improper and indecent to take something like this so seriously – "Why are you giving this so much attention?" This is that "pathos out of nowhere" that Nats has mentioned above, but for the EIE this wasn't out of nowhere, so the reciprocal reaction is - "How can someone be so emotionally cold/deaf and perceive something this important as "nothing"?"
Similarly, IEE's more serious reflections are perceived as requiring correction, inappropriate and excess curiosity, speculation, superficiality, and pettiness. To put it in another way - there is mutual depreciation of base values. Since IEEs statements are completely lacking in Ti, what they say lacks in certain graceful refinement and arrangement, and is often perceived as empty prattle, because it is difficult to grasp what the person is talking about, so it feels like empty talk. Such perception is not due to the person's intellect, of course, the reason lies in differences of presentation of information.
Sometimes there is a desire to limit their Fi when IEE is showing his or her relation to something that does not concern him directly. And he always showing his relation, irrespective of what he is talking about. His relation is clear, but what is not clear is why does he have to be openly broadcasting it, and why does he try to relate to something that doesn't concern him at all, for example someone else's inviolable personal life. Thank you, I don't need to know, I already know the theory.
Somewhat grating is IEE's unwillingness to sacrifice their comfort or interests for the sake of friendship and responsibilities. Their main priority is ultimate freedom i.e. nobody owes anything to anyone. Generally their desire for comfort and its importance for them is conspicuous and is perceived as a kind of philistinism.
At the same time there is a sense of indignation that the IEE is able to find an approach to anyone, show himself in a positive light, be charming and captivating (which is often perceived as hypocrisy), in addition to being successful due to IEE's ability to see and seize opportunities. This is what angers, because it seems like the person is not worthy of success and does not deserve the sympathy of others, and in general only uses people to his purposes. I don't mean that I perceive IEEs as some kind of terrible persons who don't deserve anything, no. This is not an assessment of the individual, but of the work of his ego block. What is annoying is that others are easily captivated and led on by his Fi-methods, and don't spot in them the negatives that to me are obvious. While the use of Ne-possibilities looks as if something that he hasn't truly deserved simply dropped into his lap from the sky.
Hesperis (IEE): EIE men annoy me most of all. Constant storm in a teacup, emotions swirling in an empty space, self-sacrifice with tones of manipulation (let me cut off my foot then you'll owe me! you don't want this? but I've already cut if off!) EIE women evoke a sense of respect and admiration with their talent for beautiful theatrical presentation, their brightness, and a peculiar kind of strength. Especially when they aren't talking to your SLI as one of his exes.
RRRR (IEE): I dated an EIE man for about five years with almost monthly partings and impulsive wishes to break up and leave him. Now, knowing socionics, I understand that he did everything that he could for our relationship. He was devoted and passionate, but very scattered across all the social get-togethers around us. I just didn't have enough personal time with him. He admired me, bragged about me before his friends, and swore his loyalty and love. Sensory care there was none ... as soon as I got sick he disappeared as if blown away by the wind – he did not want to witness it. I feel like the IEE can end up being broken by this relationship. His disposition will be used, his softness will be taken for weakness. IEE's famed insightfulness will be diminished, reduces in value, ascribed to fantasies, shamed; generally everything will be done so that IEE would no longer tell the EIE what the later does not want to know and hear, because it's just not within his values. My opinion is that a serious relationship of this kind is not worth it - both of you will get burned. Maybe someone has had a happy experience, would be interesting to hear about it.
AKVAlena (EIE): There is some kind of uncertainty in one's IEE partner – is he really together with you? - because it's not possible to ignore the constant flirting of IEE with everyone around him. The EIE can never provide the IEE with the level of freedom that he requires, because EIE is a "possessor" by his nature. We are ready to give ourselves fully, completely to our loved ones, but we are waiting for the same from our partners, while the IEE sees all kinds of attractive and interesting people around him who could be secondary "back-up" options. This is perhaps one of the more painful moments in these relations – this sense that you can never be one-on-one, only with him.
SLE-LSE
Fringilya (LSE): I've been seeing a SLE man for about 6 years now. There are several problems which worry and concern me in our relations. Let me give some examples:
1) He is annoyed by my care and thinks I take him for a disabled person. Example: me "do you want to have dinner?" him: "no thank you." me: "may be you don't want to eat for dinner what we have in refrigerator right now? I can cook something else." him: looking at me with slight surprise "no thanks." me: "may be you should try a piece? perhaps you'll want it then..." him: sad face (my LII friend always accepts such suggestions with much gratefulness). While the display of his concerns for me seem too direct – for example, he has decided that I need to live on another regime because according to him I rest too little. Thus if he thinks it's time for me to go to sleep, it does not matter what I am doing, he quietly comes up, interrupts all of my activities, and calls me to bed, which makes me almost hysterical.
2) A huge irritation for me is his unwillingness to plan things. He has no problem with planning on global scale, but in common everyday tasks... If I go for a walk, I need to know what I will do and where I will go. It's not possible to explain how important this is for me … He says that I remove all that is interesting with all this planning.
3) When we conflict, I feel like he literally drowns me. I cannot make sense of neither of his reasoning, nor of his arguments – they all seem to me too inaccurate and unclear and not applicable to the situation. I start to not understand why he's even bringing them up, because they are not relevant to the discussion in my opinion. As a result, the conflict ends in one of us interrupting the other, because we are willing to agree with the other side over anything now, to not let it develop any further, or we start arguing louder, which automatically leads us back to first option. I always have this feeling that I am banging my head again a wall.
4) Our relationship is more like relations of equal partners, even more so – of friends, with clearly defined responsibilities and activity spheres, which are managed by the person who is better versed in that particular sphere, which sometimes makes me regret that I cannot behave in certain matters improperly (perhaps more like a woman).
I have a feeling that all of our concessions and adjustments to one another follow from strong motivation to take action, that is, while both people are interested in doing something they can put up with the lack of anything.
He also says that I'm suppressing him somehow. Is he lying? This is impossible in my view. How can anyone suppress a SLE? A couple of examples:
1) He calls me 3 times in a row to specify our plans for dinner, but I have already emailed him the "algorithm" of our actions. I tell him, "call me once every 5 years only". He says, "I don't want to do something wrong because later you will say that I've ruined it". I say, "so what? even if something goes wrong it's not fatal". He says, "for you it is fatal, you'll be recalling this for me my whole life". I ask, "is this really true?" He replies, "you're always so strict."
2) I ask, "why did you do it this way, you don't like it this way". He says, " ... but you like it this way". I say, "I don't pay any attention to this". He says, "no, you always do it this way". I say, "why did you remember this in particular? for me it was something passing and not deserve any attention". His reply was that I always need to have things done my way and he is always aware of this.
3) He receives my emotions too acutely. He can walk around gloomy the whole evening because I flew off the handle. He doesn't understand that this happens only at home (yes, I know, I shouldn't act like this). He tells me that I'm kinder around strangers than I am with people who are close to me. This worries him.
Alisa (SLE): I think these are terrible relations. The main problem in relations of SLE and LSE is that the LSE doesn't see things from the same kind of perspective. SLE thinking is from position of a helicopter – the SLE tries to overview and encompass everything. If some piece is missing then it's a an error, or excess, or it can be replaced and filled in with something else. This is exactly the kind of thing over which LSE fixates – these kind of details – thus he loses his tempo, his rhythm, and misses the moment. If LSE is hurried, then lots of things remain unfinished, which drives him crazy.** What's more irksome is that he has to be explained from his position why something needs to be done. Thus more time gets spent on explanations, which seems unnecessary, only to satisfy his vanity and sense of value of his work (he tries to highlight and show to everyone how valuable it is that he's actualizing someone's request). His concern for the details wears my patience thin such I don't even want to request anything from him any longer. He just "gets into a pose" and sometimes receives a kick for this.
- [**note: This differences is in part due to Gulenko's cognitive styles and Process/Result differences between quasi-identical types. SLE as Holographic-Panoramic thinker and as a Result type is looking at the overall picture and trivializing the details, while for LSE as a Process type it is exactly the process that is important, the path and the details of what needs to be done next. SLEs and LSEs run into problems combining these perspectives when they need to work or so something together.]
Both my grandfather and my son are of type LSE. The pair LSE-SLE works well only in stressful situations, when they have a sense of camaraderie, "someone is attacking us". Also, the LSE suppresses me with his criticisms, which is sometimes unbearable because it falls on logic of actions (Te) e.g. "what have you achieved in this life?" He'll only be satisfied if you're raking in money like a petroleum oligarch. No other question drives me as crazy as this one, perhaps this is quadra values, or black logic, but I grow infuriated immediately. Of course sometimes we sort out our relations, try to establish who is boss in the household. Sparks fly everywhere during such events – we can break some dishes, then walk together to the store to purchase a new set. Nowadays we bought unbreakable dishware.
I had a good marriage with my LSE ex-husband, our relations were sufficiently harmonious, he was a good person which is rare. At work I was collaborating with an IEI, so I was receiving at least some compensation and transferring these emotions to my personal life.
Fringilya (LSE): Always interesting to hear how others see things from aside. I cannot say that our relationship is very strained. Yes, I often fixate over details or start fussing when I don't see any potentialities, but my SLE boyfriend doesn't have issues handling this behavior in light of our gender differences – he doesn't think that a woman should be able to do everything well. Hurrying LSEs is a catastrophic move. Never do this. It shouldn't be done. Period. Even over minor things. Here, we develop a stubbornness complex – if I am hurried on the way somewhere, I can stop and refuse to go even if I really want it.
Wanderer (SLE): I knew this one LSE woman at work. I very much liked her, and also held her in high regard. I liked that she is so hard-working and business-like. She had everything well organized and thought out to the last detail. I was annoyed by the fact that I had to explain my decisions to her, and once I did, she would nitpick over what seemed to me like details. Thus, often I opted out to not explain anything, but instead say "it will be so and so". However, I think this approach has offended her. I was also annoyed that she would pressure me, ask me to clearly start the sequence of my actions, and then keep to it, no deviations allowed. I don't really need this myself – when I have a goal before me, it's not important how I get there, I have a general plan in my head and this is sufficient for me.
Another thing that annoyed me was her helplessness in relations with her friends and family. Some kind of dependency on opinions and points of view of others. Permanent caretaking of everyone, even if it's not needed and not appreciated.
Most of all I was aggravated by her hysterics when some plans would change due to unforeseen circumstances. For example, we would plan to go out, but an order would arrive at the last minute. I take it up and tell her to go by herself, and I'll catch up later once I take care of this order. I know the route, both of us have our cell phones, we won't get lost. She is upset, "but we have agreed, you promised you would go". I didn't know what to do in such cases. We parted on my initiative because I understood that I wouldn't be able to make her happy.
Liudok (SLE): I dated an LSE man for a while. Everyone around us would say "wow, he is such a great match for you!" He was very attractive in appearance and women would be always swarming around him. One time we took a trip together going by train. At each stop he would purchase me ice cream or something to eat. It's not enough to say that I felt myself as if disabled - I felt disabled and mute in addition, because he simply wouldn't hear any of my "no, thank you's". There were two ladies traveling with us in the same cabin and both were chanting the whole way: "how wonderful that you have such a caring and thoughtful companion!"
Summary: the positives and the negatives of QI relations
The Positives of Quasi-Identical Relations:
- Quasi types are in the same club and on the same side of "Aristocatic - Democratic" dichotomy. This creates some commonality in how friendships are formed and how discussions are approached, making it easy to start a conversation. The Quasi seems like a non-threatening yet interesting conversation partner.
- Victor Gulenko has described quasi-identical relations as "mutual execution of the request" which means that Quasis seem similar to Benefactors. This means that at least initially there could be admiration of one's Quasi, a sense that he is talented in some inaccessible and unachievable to oneself way. The Quasi may seem interesting from a distance with an illusory feeling of similarity and oddness about the other person, which is intriguing. Thus the Quasi seems to be gifted in a way that you are not, and yet they are so similar to you (and often play the same social role).
- In quasi-identical relations people are motivated to become more outgoing. Gulenko classifies QI as "extroverted" relations, which means that they improve in presence of external influences.
- These relations work well with the same "arrangement" as Conflict relations: division of responsibilities, territory, chores, finances, i.e. clear differentiation of "yours-mine", such that Quasis are able to do things separately from each other and run into fewer misunderstandings. This cultivates qualities related to responsibility and self-reliance in both.
- Static / Dynamic trait coincides. One partner (static) brings stability to these relations, while the other (dynamic) introduces more continuity and flow to their experience.
- Tactical / Strategic trait also coincides. One of the partners sets an objective, while the other comes up with the methods of getting there (provided that both agree on the goal). Having common goals is a very important factor in keeping these relations together.
The Negatives of Quasi-Identical Relations:
- Many of those who have experienced these relations commented that they are more suitable for light conversation and leisure discussions, and that it's better to not meet every day. Deeper engagement and discussion prompt Quasis to realize how different they really are, which creates a distance between them. At worst, this spills out into small-scale conflicts and bickering and futile attempts to persuade the other to change his point of view; at best - a kind of bemusement and disbelief in the other's point of view ("heh, she can't be serious").
- When more serious discussions do happen, QI partners can't make much headway in terms of persuading each another. There is a sense of beating one's head against a wall, that the other person simply doesn't get it no matter how well you explain yourself. At the same time, QI partner's reasoning seems besides the point, his arguments seem insubstantial, lacking in weight and persuasive power, sometimes confusing, seemingly only tangential to the situation, which prompts Quasis to dismiss each other's arguments.
- After a lengthy interaction, a sense of boredom, annoyance, and stagnation in friendship or relations begins to accumulate. Quasis expand excessive energy in trying to explain themselves and understand each other, such that there's a feeling of being drained or "extinguished" in a sense after such conversations. If this is a romantic pairing, one or both of them may feel that there is no forward momentum and no sufficient spark in their relationship. These relations in romantic form are more acceptable for older people who value stability and who don't have other options.
- If Quasi-identical relations have taken a downturn (which is more common at work, where Quasis may compete for the same role/position in a group), there may be devaluation of each other's intellectual abilities and potential, attempts at discreditation, nagging criticisms, disbelief that anyone would listen to this person and take them seriously, feelings of envy, jealousy and amazement when one's QI partner is successful, receives praise and awards, and earns the trust and ear of other people. In some cases, this prompts suspicions of foul play on their part, that they are being disingenuous, simply faking it or lying to others. Thus quasis may suspect or even openly accuse each other of cheating, because they can't clearly see each other's motivations or follow each other's reasoning.
- Differences in Rationality / Irrationality let themselves be known in these relations. Rationals voice more complaints in this regard.
- Differences in Process/Result trait also manifest. Process types are less accommodating at close personal distances but more accommodating at large personal distances. The reverse is true of Result types (more about this). To put it succinctly: one's quasi-identical's manner of interaction is different from what one expects. Result types tend to resent their Process type partners for being kinder and more yielding around strangers and 'outsides', while being harsher with them in close company.
- There are differences in romancing and courting styles. Sensing couples ("aggressor"-"caregiver") were more vocal about these incompatibilities than Intuitive pairs ("victim"-"childlike"). The later seemed to mostly overlook this possibly due to weak sensing.
QI as "benefit" relations: In his article "Classification of Intertype Relations According to Their Purpose and Energy Dynamics", Victor Gulenko has noted that quasi-identical relations approximate those of benefit, where each person views the other as their "benefactor". Thus, one's quasi-identical in the beginning may seem to be gifted, talented, strong in some area where one is weak, admirable in some way, and thus attractive and interesting to get to know them. However, with more intensive and less casual interaction, it becomes clear that they somehow fall short of one's ideal. Thus, it could be said that quasi-identicals may exhibit similar responses and behaviors that are characteristic of "beneficiary→benefactor" relations - initial admiration mixed in with later disappointments. Similar to "beneficiary→benefactor", the creative function of each quasi-identical falls onto the ignoring function of the other - thus creative input of one simply gets ignored by the other, and both end up putting in too much effort into trying to convince the other. Unlike benefit relations, leading function of one does not "feed into" the hidden agenda of the other, thus it could be said that quasi-identity is even "less than" the typical "beneficiary→benefactor" interactions.
ENFj vs. ENFp, quasi-identical quarrel
(quarrel over Ti (expectations regarding rules) and Fi (internal feelings))
I'm an ENFj, and I've had a business deal with an ENFp since approximately July 9, 2011.
It's been hilarious to see the progression and devolvement of this relationship into seemingly needless misunderstandings and petty bickering, (as predicted by the Wikisocion's description of Quasi-identical relations.)
The ENFp contracted our company via a third party, (a trusted bank,) to film his son + band's 1.25 hour performance at Springfield, Massachusetts' 2011 Hoop City Jazz & Art Festival (which was, in itself as a festival, AMAZING.) He asked for "professional" coverage of "the whole set" of his son + band, and a special shotgun audio set-up. To us, this translated to two camera hi-def coverage, and we obliged with the shotgun audio coverage. Also, he wanted it to play on a Mac. Taking all of this into account, our company did exactly that.
Flash forward several weeks. The shoot is done; the editing is done; and the post-production is done. It's taken 69.5 hours of labor. I take the hi-def film over to the ENFp's office, who "loves it," and "thinks it's great." Then I tell him the price, which our company had already heavily discounted, and he looks 'taken aback' -- as though we had been his relatives, planning to do it for free, and now ripping him off. Eventually he agreed to a price of $1400.00, which, while on the lowest of the low-end for a deluxe package, I accepted, due to what I thought was this ENFp's "good reputation" and "good relationship with Springfield's arts community." (The trend I believed he had via Ni + Fe.)
Next he complains that all he ever really wanted was something short, focused directly on his son and not the band, and "Mom & Pop" in character; which totally flew in the face of what he asked for, originally. He then asked us to re-edit the 1.25 hour creation into 25 minutes that his son could upload to YouTube. Our company did exactly that.
On turning in the "YouTube creation," first, the ENFp could not figure out a way to "get open the [jewel] case." (That was a head-scratcher.) He said that it "took him over an hour" to get it open, which must have been (Delta) hyperbole. Next, about two hours later, he calls me - while I'm shooting another project - and says, "I'm really frustrated with this. We don't seem to be communicating well. This video doesn't play in any of my office's PCs." At the time, I told him that's because what's on the DVD is in file form, so that it can be uploaded to YouTube, via a Mac -- like he originally asked. That was the reason it was not playing on any of his PCs. Regardless, he was pissed and swore at me.
At this point, I was beginning to consider this guy somewhat unreasonable, (or perhaps just ENFp, lol.) He'd been born into a lot of money, and I got the feeling that he felt "entitled" to whatever he wanted, regardless of whether it was technologically possible or not. (It wasn't.) Regardless, I offered to re-edit his project a third time to make it closer to what he expressed he wanted - which, I now thought was a "Mom & Pop" type of video, with a DVD menu, playable on all formas of media--PCs, Macs, DVDs, etc--for the songs that featured his son on vocals. Our company did exactly that.
The ENFp then comes back and wants to haggle price, largely - he's said to me - because *his son* did not like his own performance in the video. The ENFp now bases the product's worth on ***Fi!!!*** The ENFp feels badly for his son, who (likely) did not give his best effort during the 2011 Hoop City Jazz & Art Festival - although it certainly was nothing about which to be embarrassed, in my opinion.
The showdown then becomes the ENFj's expectation of Ti - expectations based on the amount agreed upon by both the ENFp and ENFj ($1400.00) - and the ENFp's Fi - "I will not pay for it because it didn't please the person I loved."
That's how it's played out in my case, with no conclusion yet. Certainly sucks, as my company just bought a Costco-sized box of Ramen noodles.
