Benefit observations¶
General comments on benefit relations¶
shale14 (LII): If you want to keep the relationship, you will have to accept the fact that the Benefactor will never view you on the same level. You will always be a little below, and the more you resist - the worse you will look. There is only one way out - find yourself some activities, hobbies, work on the side that you enjoy doing. There you will be appreciated according to your true value and your resentments will dissipate. Never argue in public with your Benefactor - believe me, it’s not to your favor. Sort out your grievances in private. In public, distance from your Benefactor, leave to make it clear that you’re offended; your Benefactor will miss you, and sooner or later come to you. The Benefactor suffers without the Beneficiary as well, because with the Beneficiary the Benefactor creatively realizes him/herself for 100% - no person of sound mind would refuse or want to miss out on this!
Verenika (LII): In my experience, and by theory, benefit relations are of course easier than supervision - there is no need here to “step on the throat of your own song” so to say, to suppress yourself to not harm the other. Benefit partners are able to partially complement one another, so they feel some kind of similarity, they feel that they are “berries from the same field”. In some sense this is great. But the main thing that I learned from being in a relationship with my beneficiary is that there is never of sense of full symbiosis. You like one another, but individually, by yourselves, you’re also great. The synergy isn’t there. There is no “working on the same team”, no full understanding and acceptance of one another, and this creates a certain distance between people in benefit relations. You will talk about same things but in different languages. You can upset and offend the other when your sole intention was to help. In the end, all of this gets very tiring, yet all the time you feel: “But my partner is such a great/good person - isn’t this enough to save our relationship?”
In general, in presence of compatible worldviews and interests, benefit relationship has a chance. This isn’t conflict, nor supervision. But - for me at least this was the case - the crux of the issue is that it’s difficult to evaluate the state of affairs. For the entire 1.5 years that I was in benefit relations I did not stop to doubt their meaningfulness. And I will say this honestly: I wouldn’t want to be in the place of my partner, to be the beneficiary, despite the fact that the beneficiary receives valuable support on his suggestive function. In short, each will have his or her own problems, and there won’t be any end to them. Thus don’t expect strongly pronounced positives in these relations.
The Benefactor will next to never derive anything educational for him or herself. I can guarantee you this. He or she will attempt to fix and change you instead - just a little bit, out of good intentions, of course, and with a sincere wish to help you. This isn’t anything hurtful of offensive from benefactor’s point of view. Most that the benefactor is able to do to improve things is hold back from interfering and imposing own opinions - but this isn’t always possible, and sometimes there is simply no wish to do so. The most unpleasant and agonizing thing in these relations is that from his or her own position your benefactor will always be right. But this position has nothing to do with the beneficiary. You live in different worlds that have different priorities and different values, where different aspects and details are of importance. Not a single one of your weaknesses will go unnoticed and forgiven - and the amount of outcries and fuss that will be made on their ground will always be more than you think is appropriate and fair. Good thing if your benefactor will simply try to teach you instead of demanding and pressuring you on your painful function. I was very much emotionally starved in my benefit relationship with an SLI and at times I bucked.
LII-IEI¶
Makedonski (LII): I am living in the same dorm room with an IEI roommate for a third year now. Initially I thought that I’ve never had a better friend than him - it was all good in our friendship. Later we started having problems as it is depicted in benefit relations. Not sure how to describe it … he started to annoy me with his jokes and heckling, which previously I didn’t notice. Reviewing our friendship, I can say that almost all of it fits with socionics benefit.
Verenika (LII): My mother and father are of these types. They have been married for a long while. Sometimes my mother gets bored a little, and my father apologizes to her over some minor things - but they don’t fight. They love each other and have raised two wonderful children. As I understand the IEI is somewhat upset over what she sees as weakness of character in the LII, his inability to assertively demand something for himself. IEIs think that LIIs are too soft-bodied (in comparison with their duals - of course!). Also the LII wants to sit at home (though this isn’t true of all LIIs), while the IEI needs to be taken out, given some new impressions once in a while. This is what I have seen with my parents.
Fly lady (IEI): I haven’t lived together with LIIs, but I’ve had several friends and acquaintances of this type. What irritates the IEI in the LII? The LII’s certainty in that he has learned The Ultimate Truth. For an IEI everything in the world has multiple meanings, causes, and possible interpretations. For the LII - it is all linear. I like Ti, but to me it is clear that this is not a universal instrument for learning about the world, while the LII is fully consumed by it. Another “arguable” moment: the LII’s tendency to make universal/global judgments. They evaluate everything that is happening from the point of view of world progress and benefit for the humanity as a whole. For me this is a strange way of thinking! IEI’s are very individualistic - they try to experience, check, and verify everything through their own experiences and reasoning. But don’t be offended LIIs! You have asked what annoys the IEI in these relations and I have replied. I dearly love my LII friends.
[Effects of `3D <Dimensionality_of_functions>`__ Fe conscious block Fe of IEI onto `1D <Dimensionality_of_functions>`__ unconscious block if LII, where the LII can’t quite discern what value to attribute to IEI’s emotions. Both types are also emotivists, whereas in dual couples one type is usually emotivist and one is constructivist.]
[This may be true of IEI in the enneagram image triad (2,3,4) who indeed enjoy creating certain impressions and images of themselves, but it’s much less true of IEIs of other enneagram types.]
[Democratic-aristocratic differences are evident here.]
Ierofant (LII): I’ve had many friendships and romances with IEIs. It’s very easy for an LII and an IEI to get together. Initially both feel attraction towards one another. It’s easy for me to become acquainted with and charm Esenins. Before I knew about socionics, I used to wonder why the girls that I attract are so alike internally and didn’t understand why this is so :-)
For a while, everything is great. Mutual understanding, sharing of innermost thoughts, and so on. Then problems begin. All of this was taken from my personal experience, thus it may not be universal:
Problem number one: The IEI is too insular. I dream of a person who is open, whose feelings would be apparent, that everything would be simple and clear, no omissions, lapses, or vague hints (yes, this is an unconscious request for my dual ESE). While the IEI is turned inwardly. It’s not easy for her to open up and tell about herself. My attempts to draw something out of her she feels as pressuring, and then withdraws even further. If I close off myself, she doesn’t notice it and is perfectly capable of living in parallel with me without any particular emotional involvement.
Problem number two: Conflict of rationality with irrationality. This has been described already on the example of LII-SEI. Similarly I start to feel irritated with IEI’s irrationality which shows itself in small things as well as in large ones (how we took up home remodeling with an IEI is an entire story!). Discussing problems is something impossible! She cannot grasp my logic and at the same time cannot explain why she thinks this way or that way, then she starts getting angry that I don’t understand her and withdraws into herself. On the other hand, when I explain something to her logically, she feels cheated, like a child being tricked by a magician. Plus the constant mood fluctuations with departures into herself, and the agonizing distress over every little thing. And the famous IEI monologues - once every while, she starts to Speak. At length, tediously, jumping from one thought to another in a completely unstructured manner, repeating herself and getting lost and tangled in her own thoughts, not making any distinction between what is important and what isn’t - this she can be unloading onto you for hours. This verbal chaos is aggravating!
Problem number three: IEI’s laziness. The IEI is visionary and inspired in her laziness. She is too lazy to get up and do something - it’s much easier for her to [I]imagine[/I] how she will get up and d[I]ream[/I] about doing something, and oh how great it will be - but remain at rest. She flows along with the current, and then complains that the current didn’t carry her where she wanted. But to swim actively in another direction is not for her. As a result of this, an Image appears in IEI’s mind. This image is of herself in her own dreams. With time, the IEI starts to believe that these are not only dreams, that she really is how she has painted herself within her Image. Next - personality split: “I, in reality” and “I, in the Image”. When you see that inside the person whom you love there live two people - one of whom loves you, and another despises you because you are interfering - this is unsettling.
Besides that, the IEI never prods the LII on the topic of how to spend free time, unlike the ESE - she offers the LII to think of something himself. The LII feels lost, doesn’t know what to suggest - as a result, joint free time is in danger of remaining dull and insipid.
Problem number four: managing the household together. The IEI is amazingly not into housekeeping. Considering that the LII is not into it either, their living space turns into bedlam. Periodically, the LII makes a scary face and theytake up cleaning and ordering things together. And this lasts a few days. From the point of view of managing a household, it is much easier for the LII to live alone - he likes cleanliness and order and is able to keep it up (according to his own preferences). For a family LII + IEI - their home turns into chaos. Good, tasty food - will be found in restaurants, since the IEI strongly dislikes cooking (she cooks occasionally, but not regularly and without much enthusiasm). For arranging and decorating the living space, the IEI will gladly come up with many different ideas and setups, but when it comes to actual implementation - choosing the wallpaper, drafting the furniture layout scheme, installing the wiring for the lights, and so on - her enthusiasm wanes,* she loses interest, this “toy” is no longer interesting to her. As a result, at home there is a bunch of projects that have been started but never finished, because the LII is fine living as it is - he doesn’t see the wiring that is hanging from the ceiling, while the IEI is already bored with the idea about the lights.
There is a lot more I can tell about. As one LII friend of mine has said, who also went through an IEI phase: “after the IEI, being with the ESE is sheer paradise!” But there is a lot of good, too, in these relations. Mutual understanding, feeling for one another, journeys into each other’s inner worlds, refined understanding of music, literature, art, and the simple Beauty of this world. With IEIs one can easily communicate non-verbally. But living together is very challenging.
[The IEI quickly loses interest in absence of Se support and doesn’t feel motivated by LII’s Si. While the IEI is in need of strong forward momentum, the LII, as a “Judicious” type, is still in stage of planning and compiling drafts for how to position their furniture - Decisive/Judicious quadra differences are evident here.]
TheRoSS (IEI): This above response is great! It’s nice sometimes to recognize yourself! Each point is spot on. But still, let’s make a few additions to this.
Problem number one: Yes, the LII can be somewhat bothersome with his questions and inquiries. Do I really need to be held accountable for my every step? Not only do I not remember every little thing I have thought and done, but it’s very straining to try to recall it. Plus, once I have made some plans, if I share them with anyone, there is 99% chance that I won’t follow through with them. For example, if I make a present to some girl with whom I’m not in a relationship with but only dating, I won’t see her again. Although may be in half a year I’ll try to connect again, to be friends. Therefore, LIIs, please don’t try to penetrate into IEI’s inner world - for the IEI this feels intrusive.
Problem number two: LIIs at times flounder themselves with the same lengthy speeches, about how one should live and how one shouldn’t. And they are so logical, so correct and consistent! that it gets rather tedious. Especially when they start talking about not having enough money. IEI’s aren’t that concerned about money! When it’s there - it’s good. But we won’t work like mules just to earn a little more. And when I interrupt them they feel offended. Please don’t! Just remember that we’re different.
Problem number three: The personality split occurs in the IEI out of sense of their own inadequacy. The more you will pressure an IEI and demand him or her to be rational - the further he or she will withdraw and “split-up”. Here I can give you some useful advice: don’t wait for IEI’s initiative in domestic affairs. It won’t happen. And even if it will, you won’t be happy afterwards. Show a bit of initiative yourselves and call her for help. But don’t do chores in parallel, instead do them together. For example, if you’re cooking, then ask your IEI partner to peel and cut the vegetables. If you take the initiative into your hands, the IEI will gladly help you out. When I can’t stare at the mess at home any longer, I readily take care of it, while my LII partner takes care of the remaining details. Then for several months calmness and cleanliness prevails. But don’t start up anything major, 2-4 hours of “home projects” is optimal. There is a lot that can be done together in this time. If you see the IEI is slacking a little, don’t bother him or her - the IEI will soon feel ashamed of it him/herself.
Problem number four: I’ll just add that IEIs, besides their seeming frugality, are keen aesthetes. Therefore, any mess or ugliness in their homes drives them further into themselves. In total chaos, you’ll never reach them. Again, start taking care of it yourself and then call the IEI to help you. The IEI will come, and feel guilty if she/he doesn’t. Besides, doesn’t the mess feel oppressive to you yourself? When I was living together with an LII girl and the chaos has started, I told myself that I am going to look at this as if I’m living alone. I’ve simply started cleaning up on my own, and seeing this she joined in to help me. If you look to yourself to take initiative, you will get help from others.
If my words have offended someone, a big request to not judge me harshly. I was just trying to convey the general feelings and view points of an IEI in this situation. Perhaps this will help you reach an understanding in your mutual life together.
Pavel Decart (LII): I agree with Fly Lady, the problems are exactly that. Concerning Ierophant’s post, I agree only with half of it, about the psychology, but don’t fully agree with parts on housekeeping. The IEIs can diligently work on “setting up their nests”, but they do so in pulses and waves. According to statistics of my friends and relatives, the LII-IEI is a very common pairing among couples. My mother herself is of type IEI. We love each other and have many common theoretical and spiritual interests (including socionics). I’ve also had several romances with IEI girls. In general, “benefit” is a good type of relations.
Eiren (IEI): Concerning IEI’s outbreaks of emotions and hysteria, this was one of the problems in my relationship with an LII. Initially, he thought that I was a calm and emotionally stable person, and that these outbreaks are something very worrisome and unusual, that I am extremely distraught. What needs to be understood here is that during an emotional episode the IEI is indeed VERY upset, that for him or her it is VERY important. But later he recovers and feels that perhaps he’s overdone it, that it wasn’t worth it, etc. Thus, at the beginning my LII boyfriend tried to console me and of course interpreted all of this as something more serious and worrying than it really was. Meanwhile I started feeling like I am cheating him somehow, tricking him, trying to get something from him by these tears - even though I wasn’t thinking anything like that, which made me feel ashamed. I think he, too, has recognized this - now he demonstratively tries to remain stoic, not give it any attention, wait it out until he can talk with me. Naturally, this kind of reaction also doesn’t make the IEI happy (I’m not going to explain why, as I think it is apparent). I try to be calm even when he loses it. In such moments he tells me all that he thinks, then quickly calms down and apologizes if he got carried away. Sometimes our mutual introversion gets in the way. We nudge each other sort of like “may be you’ll tell me something interesting?” “I see you didn’t miss me too much - don’t you want to talk?” At times, it gets unbearable as each of us sits in a separate corner and stares into his or her computer. But when both of us are in the mood to talk, there are lot of positives and a deep sense of fulfillment. Sometimes I make myself talk about things that I would normally not talk about, simply talk about what’s happening around me, or remember something that has recently happened - my LII boyfriend lightens up, starts telling of something himself and making jokes, then I don’t need to force myself to mimic an extrovert because our conversation flows by itself. Once in a while he will provoke these conversations himself.
Berrysister (IEI): Eiren your post was spot on, about the communication of IEI and LII, and about IEI’s emotions … When I am upset I usually try to show it by my look: I become withdrawn, aloof, depressed and scattered, although what I really want to do is cry and tell him of everything “to his face” i.e. throw a “small tantrum”, but I restrain myself (I’m afraid I’ll overdo it). I just can’t bring myself up to say anything - he should be able to guess it himself! My LII bf always notices these changes and attempts to get a “logical” answer from me. At this point, I assume a mysterious look and say that I cannot tell him. What follows next is that his mood becomes same as mine, he may even act like he was offended by me. Usually after such episodes everything settles by itself, but a sense of dissatisfaction lingers.
Solaris (LII): ESEs emote in such a way that the LII doesn’t feel himself at fault. If they give out negative emotions, it happens in short bursts, because the ESE soon switches his or her attention to something else. When someone becomes aloof and closed off to demonstrate how he/she is upset, this is truly unpleasant. If I have any energy and positive in me at such times, I’ll try to prod the person, to make them brighten up. But if not, I begin feeling uneasy myself, thinking about the possible causes. A sense of discomfort arises: something isn’t right within my close circle of people. If someone is demonstratively upset, then this person is likely upset at you, while you were only acting from your best intentions. And when you ask them, they make a mystery out of it. At this point of course I start growing angry and frustrated myself, and in an outburst may end up stepping on the same rake that nobody has told me about.
Berrysister (IEE): ESEs also have strong, very natural and very important for them emotions, which could be negative ones if something bad has happened. But the ESE states very clearly that he is upset over a dent in his car. What I mean is that in ESE’s verbal flow the problem is directly mentioned and specified. In comparison, IEIs are much more insular and secretive. I think the LIIs don’t always understand what has upset them. When they finally do understand, they become suspicious of the reasons that made the IEI upset or don’t take those reasons too seriously.*
[Difference between Si concretization and Ni generalization is evident here. The LII has demonstrative Ni and therefore struggles to take Ni information seriously.]
Eiren (IEI): I’ve been in a relation with an LII for almost 1.5 years. This relationship isn’t simple. I fluctuate between feeling bouts of optimism, feeling that I am strong and that I can do whatever is needed, to badly wanting to have someone watch over me. Sometimes I can’t tell my LII directly what I need without feeling slightly offended or disappointed (“you couldn’t guess yourself?”) Also - I don’t like his one dimensional view on some things. When I delicately explain to him that of course, you are right, but if you look at this from the point of view of this person, whom you’re judging and criticizing, then perhaps he is thinking that … - here I get interrupted as he starts repeating and explaining his point of view again. Myself - I don’t always carry out small promises, and something have nervous break down over small things, of which I feel ashamed later. But there is a wish to meet each other halfway and to compromise, and this is wonderful.
Larna (LII): Of course with duals it’s easier to talk and to be around them. I very much love all my ESE friends, at least those of them who are good people. But concerning sensing, I often feel inadequate next to them. Have you ever worked next to an ESE or some other sensing types? I get a feeling that I should simply step aside and observe how wonderfully well they do all the work themselves, without my feeble attempts to help them. And they won’t ask you about your TIM. Even if you’re a “good girl” and get good evaluations otherwise, they will see that you’re “sitting it out in the shade”. The “cult of a good housekeeper” is promoted mostly by people of sensing types, and they will judge you by such criteria. Next to IEIs I don’t feel this way. Of course I can dream near someone of a sensing type, but it’s not the same. Of course, I don’t need to ask ESEs to do anything - I haven’t even finished talking while the ESE has already gone out and settled everything. And this is without any grimaces of onerous “victim-ness” on his face. But around duals the intuitive part of your personality never becomes realized. Of course you’re cared for and provided for, but there is no deep understanding, no discussions of any deep philosophical or spiritual questions - all you get in return is a compliment and an apple pie. Roughly four years ago I left my ESE for an understanding IEI, whom I completely trust as I would trust myself. When we are together neither we nor any of our friends think that this was a mistake.
Cheshire (SLI): I have the opportunity to observe this kind of relationship firsthand. Everything is “by the textbook”. The IEI still makes an unconscious request for Se and periodically provokes the LII (to exaggerate a bit: “Show yourself a man! not a sponge.”) Though she knows in her mind that this isn’t right, but still slips from time to time. She feels worn out by the need to constantly keep track of and attend to LII’s sensory state of affairs. She only has enough strengths to keep track of their household, so what he receives often is verbal instruction from her role function about “how things should be”. To constantly charge him with positive emotions for her, as an introvert, is also not feasible. She told me once: “He needs a lively girl with apple pies, and that’s not me.” Can you see in this a simplified image of an ESE? And she doesn’t even know about socionics.
roza red (LII): LIIs do tell IEIs what to do, but they don’t take these orders seriously. The IEI is waiting for clear directions and a volitional impulse. LII’s instructions are usually phrased as: “Please do it if you find the time …” or “Perhaps you could do it like this?” The help and advice provided to his IEI partner by the LII consists of him saying: “You can do it like this, or like this”. The LII is oriented at conservation of one’s strengths and self-defense rather than at demanding something actively or taking something over from someone. But instructions and advice given in this manner to the IEI will be taken into account and carried out by the IEI only selectively.
ILI-EII¶
Dosia-2 (EII): I’ll try to recall a few positives and negatives of my benefit relations with an ILI. The positives: surges of information, which with a correctly asked question would be poured onto my head; absolute indifference/nonchalance, which by me, a young and inexperienced EII, was perceived as total control of the situation; ability to do whatever he pleased and anything that wandered into his head (and many things did …); and calm pessimism (“yes, we’re all going to die, nothing wrong with this”). The negatives: appalling treatment of his own body, and consequently of mine, too; sex (imho two intuitive introverts can make a good match anywhere but the bedroom); lack of protection (“I’ll go stand over there while you deal with this.”); frequent outbursts. We parted due to an invented (by me) reason, after a stormy hysterical episode, a show, in all honesty, that I have put on, while he sat aside and savored it. After our romantic relations have ended, our friendship continued for several more years (we quite often paid him visits with my new LSE companion).
Vesna05 (SEE): What Dosia is saying about the flurry of emotions - that feels like a flurry for her TIM. In reality, within these relations, the EII will constantly have to mimic an extroverted ethical type for the ILI. The ILI, after all, is oriented at a loud, rowdy SEE. Concerning sex - it’s all understandable, no need to comment further. About protection - spot on! The ILI himself won’t protect you. He will either try to prevent the situation where this would be needed and attempt to pull you aside, but if the situation has occurred then he’ll only feel bad … Concerning him sitting and savoring Dosia’s hysterics, he wasn’t savoring it but emotionally processing and experiencing it. Though a hysterical show put on by an EII may look as a show-spectacle put on by an SEE, so perhaps her ILI boyfriend even enjoyed this.
A rhetorical question that gets asked, but not answered: why do they need such relations at all? Because love is such that you may fall in it even with an ILI. Love doesn’t choose whom to love. Socionics hasn’t annulled the existence of pheromones, the call of the flesh and the attraction of the two souls. All misunderstandings show up only later, after close contact and interaction. Initially, the not very strong ILI will fall in love with an EII because on her background he will feel himself stronger. And she will without hesitation believe in his words. It will seem to her at first that he can reach out and take the moon from sky for her.* While a young SEE won’t believe him and demand proof - go out and get it now since your promised!
[note: It is typical of these relations for the EII to listen to and unquestioningly accept ILI’s arguments and conclusions, because ILI’s creative Te is EII’s suggestive function (i.e. EIIs are very suggestible by Te). EII’s own logical functions have
Dosia-2 (EII): I completely agree with Vesna. There is a huge difference. What for me is a horrible scandal, my SEE sister calls: “we have discussed it”. With her comments this situation became much clearer to me.
Pauline_Overdrive (IEI): About protection, this is all true. In one unpleasant for me situation my ILI friend has decided not to say anything, and then later, one-on-one, he decided to speak out and tell me that I was the one to blame for it. The second ILI tried to “act like a man” and defend “his girl”, but while he initially stepped forward, he didn’t follow through with the situation and drive it to finish.
InSolo (ILI): How does the ILI make a “social request” to the EII? This is how. The ILI grows tired of his environment and his social circle. He becomes entangled in incomprehensible to him relations, strained on his painful function to the brink, completely exasperated - all around him what is happening is sheer outrage and ugliness. The ILI suffers this in silent anguish. By happenstance, an EII appears near him, as, you see, the EII was just passing by. As a base function ethical type, upon observing this dire situation the EII rushes in to bring some sense and order to ILI’s environment, concurrently readjusting ILI’s introverted ethics while sympathizing with him and consoling him on the issues of his vulnerable function. The ILI is very appreciative - oh miracle! an angelic figure has descended and answered his prayers! He casts himself into the embraces of his savior and pours out all his soreness: here I wasn’t understood, there I was wronged, and in general the place is full of scoundrels and bastards. The EII listens to this and offers his commentary - he starts from afar, by telling the ILI of interesting things that are seemingly unrelated. When the ILI has calmed down, the EII, carefully monitoring his reactions, begins to pull the ILI into the waves of entertaining nothingness, and soon enough ILI himself doesn’t notice how they are already discussing his painful issues. All the ILI needed was 2-3 “orienting” points and a “stamp of quality” for resolving some specific situations, which he is able to obtain from his conversations with an EII. The EII is also happy with how things are going - the “right” in EII’s view order (hierarchy) was established - the heroes were praised and distinguished by a laurel.
Here they should part - the mission has been completed, and their relationship at this point loses its grain of reason. But the EII, out of habit, continues to adjust ILI’s introverted ethics to the rhythms of the universe, which the ILI no longer needs - everything is dandy now and changing anything is unnecessary. However, on his negative intuition of possibilities the EII isn’t appeased: how can everything be fine now? what if the ILI falls into catatonia again? this has to be prevented! And the ILI certainly will fall again, meanwhile the EII feels like he’s not able to lay down enough “soft pillows” to buttress his fall. As a result, the EII overloads the ILI’s Fi activating function. Now the ILI will start defending himself, and at the same time he takes a closer look as this “savior angel”. While the EII was sorting out ILI’s “ethical space”, everything was fine; but once the EII attempts to get even closer and manage the ILI and his affairs from the point of view of ethics and weak logical functions, this is when the EII starts to seem unsound and inadequate to the ILI. This is not only because the EII appears to contort and belie facts and cut corners on logic, but also because EII’s highly developed aristocratic ethics will seem grotesque to the ILI. The “angel” has fallen, his or her light has grown dimmer, and the ILI distances from the EII shaking his head in bewilderment. The EII is also perplexed - the preparatory phase was almost over, and he was just getting ready to seriously and thoroughly take up the “ILI case”, while the ILI has left and distanced himself from EII’s experimental ethical “potions”. And so until the next crisis. The EII won’t even get any thanks for all his work, because to the ILI it seems like he was requesting a little bit of help and instead he’s gotten fed with some heavy epic saga.
In their discussions, while the EII is working only from his ethics and intuition, everything is fine. However, as soon as the EII will try to put his worldviews into some logical framework, this is where the problems begin. There will be many mistakes that for the ILI will be too obvious, while the EII will struggle with explaining the apparent to him ethical nuances to the logical ILI.
InSolo (ILI): How does this interaction differ from ILI’s activity relations with ESIs? ESIs are activating by their seeming ineffectiveness coupled with a dolorous desire to defeat and overcome their problems or foes. Witnessing this, the ILI cannot hold back from engaging himself and doing something. He helps the ESI, finds him work or a position, and simultaneously reviews some key points of his own life situation and career. It’s not that the ILI likes such scenes of helplessness, but they provoke him to concrete activities: how great it would be to find a job for this person, and now the ILI is already stirred up and actively scurrying in search of something. The only difference is that an ESI will desperately question the universe with howls of anguish, while the EII bites the harness and plows through any made available to him field.
IEI-ESI¶
George (LIE): I’ve met this pair before. I gathered from their phone conversation that the IEI is far from being able to give clear instructions. Many times I wanted to take over the phone myself and tell everything as it needs to be told. There is no logic in this pair (I mean strong logic). Their interactions move along without any visible results. It’s something like an ethical whirlpool that just keeps spinning round and round.** Eventually the ESI feels tired and annoyed by this because she/he isn’t getting any results on the suggestive function. This is all from my observations. Otherwise they’re doing alright.
[Both IEI and ESI may feel like they are running in circles without getting much done also because both are Tactical types that have trouble aligning their actions with some long-term strategy or goal to organize their lives around, unlike their duals SLE and LIE, both Strategic types.]
Baileys (ESI): I had a relationship with an IEI guy but didn’t marry him. I felt like nothing was right, that in a year I’ll be a widow with a criminal record. There are two female IEI in my circle: my sister and my friend. It’s not easy. From both sides. Periodically we need a time-out from each other. I hurt them more often, than they hurt me.
Miracle Worker (IEI): I have a friend of type Dreiser. We constantly argue due to his throat-cut rationalism and practicality. Only a few hours ago we were arguing whether there is any use in philosophy as a science. Likewise, he reduces art and religion down to what material benefit these bring. He has a thirst for justice e.g. he has quarreled with the college dean over undeserved, in his view, scores that ruined his red diploma. He was happy that the truth has triumphed no matter at what cost. My ESI friend’s crazy workaholism and meticulous work ethic are unnerving. And yes, he is very capable of grounding anything by boiling it down to its concrete benefits and rationality.
Super-Kaktus (IEI): I’ve used to chat with an ESI girl. It was a somewhat close friendship between us. Communication was very smooth, and over time we have became close over a number of similar interests and outlooks on life. In our conversations, my ESI friend would alternate between talking of her own alleged imperfections and the imperfections of the world, in which she was quick to become disappointed. Eventually she became disillusioned with me, and my “complaining and problems, which I simply don’t want to solve once and for all” - in her words. ESIs complain, too, only they do it aggressively, rapidly switching between different subjects, something along the lines “I’m so stupid. The world is so full of stupid people in general. Now let’s discuss how we could fix/destroy/reform it”. She tried to keep our friendship to the very end, but then she abruptly broke it off and distanced from me so suddenly that I only saw her heels flashing, while I had cognitive dissonance and eyes the size of saucer plates from surprise.
Drakosha (IEI): I liked an ESI guy for a while. I tried to attract his attention, flirt or something like it. The main feeling I got from our interaction is reminiscent of the movie “The Taming of the Shrew”. Constant attempts to discipline from ESI’s end. This was expressed as jabs and digs directed at me, at some of my personal qualities. Which to me meant: “You should change yourself!” And I could try changing, but I also saw that he doesn’t really need this. The ESI guy simply made these prickly comments that he threw my way that weren’t telling me of anything. And I don’t get why is this needed? To what purpose? There is nothing he is trying to achieve, neither is he trying to offend me. Then why are all these jabs and prodding comments needed? In the end, while I was interacting with this ESI guy, I stopped understanding what is needed and expected of me and started feeling disoriented and somewhat anxious. I felt like something is being expected of me from his end, but I was lost as to what that might be. When I try to build a relationship with someone, it is preferable that I see at least a transparent contour of what my partner wants. I can guess, but it’s better and more assuring for me when I ask a direct question to receive a direct response.
Frost Mirriam (IEI): Once I have shown my ESI friend some of my creative writing - poetry written during the period of deep depression. She read it and said to me: “ew, this is so pretentious!” Since that time I don’t show her my poetry anymore, and none of my other works.
Dashu (IEI): Why does everything have to be described in such terrible colors? Yes, ESIs like to control everything and everyone, and drive them under the framework of their stereotypes and notions. It is impossible to argue with them because for them there is only one correct view - their own. At the same time, it’s awesome when you are pulled out of another scruff, while a swift punch to the face is delivered to anyone who has dared to encroach on ESI’s “Ni treasure” (figuratively speaking). The suggestive function of IEI (Se) is always satisfied. Although problems arise, even up to scandals, when ESI tries to impose her own views. Then there’s a need to keenly maneuver between subduing one’s own and another’s anger, while still asserting one’s own opinion. In general, living together with ESI for the IEI is similar to living on a gunpowder keg that periodically releases a cloud of smoke - all in all it’s not that bad.
Vitacha (IEI): ESIs support, that they provide from their 1st function Fi, is presented in such a way that it doesn’t look like support to the IEI, but as, for example, a lecture on the evils of smoking. A thorough lecture, where the issue is meticulously sorted out. However, for IEIs Fi is a vital function - for them information of this kind is like a muddy current of dubious assumptions that seem to be not hinged or based on anything. Fi for ESIs is base or “background” function, so they typically don’t notice how much everything that they say gets colored by it. So in a conversation between IEI and ESI, what the IEI hears from the ESI is this stream of seemingly baseless information that doesn’t fit with how the IEI understands things to be and deals with people and relationships, including IEI’s relationship with the ESI. More so, ESIs aren’t EIIs - the later you can at least ignore or send somewhere far away, while the ESI will nitpick and watch carefully that you don’t slip away from her control. This sense of constant -Fi pressuring and control is very aggravating in itself to the IEI.
S-C: I have heard of, and observed myself, the following scenario: The benefactor finds a beneficiary. For example, an ESI in search of a life partner and without experience of dual relations finds an IEI, who is nice, feminine, emotionally stable, soulful and sincere, fitting of the image of what the ESI appreciates in people. The IEI reacts to the ESI positively - the ESI with his/her creative volitional sensing and rationality fits the IEI’s ideal of what “a real man/woman” should be like. The IEI seems to ESI rather helpless, but if the ESI is intellectually inclined, they get drawn into various interesting conversations. Thus a relationship develops between them. Over time, ESI’s ignoring or limiting Fe wears out IEI’s strong creative Fe function. Their interaction proceeds more harmoniously on sensing-intuition related topics, rather than topics pertaining to logic-ethics. Trying to sort out logic-ethics will make it clear to both of them that these relations are far from their ideal and prompt them to distance.
Cassiopea (IEI): The relationship that I have with my ESI husband is terrible. It will be good for a couple of days, then he begins digging in and nitpicking me. He criticizes and tries to re-educate me. He is constantly dissatisfied by something, and teaches, teaches, teaches … And this feeling that I’m so horrible while he’s so good, that I won’t make it without him and will only be able to find some alcoholic (he doesn’t drink or smoke) - this feeling he has beaten into me so deeply that it became my neurotic complex. I look like a cornered animal who only expects another educational “blow” from him. But I don’t want to quarrel, I want to believe that everything will be okay, that things will get better, that we will find a compromise, and I concede … and in the end I feel like I am losing myself. I send him away and distance, but I’ll still feel guilty, and after a couple of days I will forget everything and call him again … and then everything starts again. Yes, he really is a very good person - kind, caring, loves children, loyal … but I’m just not his ideal. And in my mind I know that I will never be, but in my heart I still want to believe that things will get better …
Doverchivaya (IEI): With ESIs good relations develop only when we see each other infrequently. Seeing and speaking to each other often, with their endless dissatisfaction and incontestable demands, is very difficult and requires a lot of patience. All the time you feel like you owe something, like you’re obliged - and this is awful, brrr! Cassiopea, to deal with your ESI husband’s criticisms try to abstract away and not take it personally. Let him nag and criticize the air around himself, meanwhile you can think of something else. Sooner or later he’ll get tired of it. Maybe he is a wonderful person, but do you really need to be in a family where you’re hiding in corners and slowly going crazy?
Tori25 (ESI): Cassiopea, these relations will not change. You are different. Sorry if I’m very categorical, but your ESI husband will continue this relationship until the very last. He’s unlikely to break it off himself, and eventually both of you will start to hate one another. You have to decide this for yourself. Adapting and agreeing with everything won’t work. You will accumulate a lot of irritation that will pour out into angry outbursts. You’ll feel yourself a cornered animal, that is incapable of anything, that can’t do anything right, whose hands grow from the wrong place and whose head isn’t working properly. It’s awful. Along with this, you’ll continue seeing your ESI husband as a good person. Over time, this will cause an enormous loss of self-esteem. You’ll stop liking yourself, become closed off, neurotic and hysterical. So my advice to you, if you don’t want to lose yourself, if you want to enjoy your life, the sun and fresh breeze outside, and notice the smiles of the people and respond to them without fear - you need to leave. Believe me, no matter how you want to change something in your relationship with him - everything will change for exactly that amount of time, until there is another “episode” and he will immediately forgets his previous promises. Because you cannot change another person’s character. It is already formed, a certain picture of the world is already imprinted, both for you and for him. And they are very different pictures. And nothing can change this.
Kobra (IEI): My mother is of type ESI. Intellectually our relations are very good, but in everything else … she often feels that I am not sensitive enough** and not responsive enough towards her, while I don’t understand why she cannot tell this to me in a way that isn’t hurtful to me, but then, I don’t always interpret what she says in the way that she has meant it. I don’t feel supported by her. Very often her words painfully sting me. It turns out that I’m always wrong, and by this I feel emotionally pressured and suppressed by her, while my reaction to her emotional pressuring is often upsetting to her.
[Problematic in IEI-ESI relations is that fact that IEI’s Fe falls on ESI’s ignoring or limiting function. Thus all the tenderness, love, and affection that IEIs express through creative Fe is simply left out of ESI’s perception - it is unintentionally ignored by them. Thus, ESIs may see IEIs as being insensitive, not warm and kind enough, even wicked, due to peculiarities of ESI’s own TIM model that completely ignores IEI’s ethical expression.]
[The beneficiary is often hyper-attentive to benefactor’s wishes and wants, which the beneficiary subconsciously interprets as calls to realize them. The benefactor is often surprised after the fact, since the benefactor has not directly told or forced the beneficiary to do anything.]
Ensoleiller (IEI): +1 scary_miracle, some these positives and negatives were similar to my relationship with my ESI mother. What gets to me in these relations is that I understand her, and I’m willing to go for a compromise, because I love her and am grateful for everything that she does. But from her side it’s like a blank wall. There is no understanding - only a total unwillingness to understand. And I am lost as to why??** I’m not talking about support - just for her to stop criticizing and inserting sticks into my wheels. Latest surprise: I opened up my own small business. My mother, without asking me a single question, went to a LIE girl who is 5 years younger than me (19 and 24) but whom she considers to be “serious”, and started asking her questions: what am I doing? am I acting right towards other people? is there something that I’m doing wrong? Only later did she come talk to me. For me this was a slap on the face, considering that this LIE girl has set me up and let me down before and later came to ask for my forgiveness. My mother’s actions to me constitute a betrayal by the person closest to me. That she admires this girl and sets her as an example for me … even knowing about socionics such development in our relationship was painful for me to accept.
[These are classical benefit relations where the beneficiary doesn’t feel like the benefactor hears her: IEI’s creative function falls on ignoring aka limiting function of ESI, thus what the IEI tries to convey by creative function simply gets ignored by the ESI and the IEI feels like the ESI doesn’t hear, doesn’t understand.]
Frost Mirriam (IEI): My mom is also ESI - and this is brutal. We can co-exist normally only if we’re separated by X number of kilometers. When we live together we quarrel every day. She irritates me by her grounded sarcastic rationalism, that sometimes she takes to the point of absurdity. Her attempts to pressure me drive me mad. She also regularly reads me morals, saying that I am lazy, that I don’t do anything - by this she tries to give me “a Se kick”, to somehow stimulate me to frantic activity. She compares me to my peers who are more successful in her opinion. If something is forbidden, she starts to carefully explain why it is so, and usually it boils down to “because the current of things is very bad, and doing anything is irrational”, instead of just saying “no” in such a way that I would have no further questions. When I’m getting ready to leave the house, every 5 minutes I am told how much time is left and hurried up (weak intuition). In general, constant hurrying is the favorite activity of both my ESI friend and my ESI mother. They also have a similar, and very specific, sense of humor.
Naivety (IEI): Ok, so I want to cook something or do something useful around the house. I ask my ESI mother a specific question and instead of receiving a concrete answer I get a half an hour long lecture where the total useful information for me is “I don’t know, I use ingredients by the eye”. After this I start inquiring about approximate portions and common methods. While I’m trying to get the answer that I need, my nerves get seriously tested, and I feel that I should run away, somewhere deep into the forest, before all of this ends with me becoming hysterical. And then I get criticized that I didn’t do something well or that I took too long to do it. For conversation my ESI mother has entire two topics: education and faults of the younger generation. ESIs also don’t listen! They ask something, but then proceed to do things their own way. Why ask in the first place? One day I return from a trip and my mom asks me whether to prepare some food for me. I say “no thanks” that I bought some products on the way back and I’ll cook something myself. Then I go to another room to unpack my bags. Suddenly I hear sounds coming from the kitchen. I look and there is my mother heating the milk that I was saving for an omelette. This is what I don’t understand: why do something when you were told that it’s not needed to be done? Ok, so my mom is only trying to help me, right? Everything is good and fine. Only within half an hour I get a lecture from her about how lazy I am, how I cannot plan anything, such that she always has to help me and do things for me.** Sorry for the morning outcry!
[The benefactor is perceptive of beneficiary’s insufficient dual-seeking function. In this case, the ESI mother feels her IEI daughter’s weakness in Te - poor ability to rationally organize her activities and plan her actions - and tries to help her prepare a meal at the same time criticizing her for this perceived flaw, while the IEI daughter does not understand why she’s doing this.]
gala83 (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - I wouldn’t wish this upon anyone! Dreiser will do everything for the good of her children: will make decisions for them, give them the magical “Se kick in the behind”, can even materially provide for them at the beginning - just do as you’re being told, go to school, get a degree in finance, every day clean and organize your home, lead a budget, be a rational type, be an LSE, be anyone but yourself. Everything good that there is in the IEI the ESI simply doesn’t notice. She attempts to remake the IEI’s personality, to turn the IEI inside out. Meanwhile, my LSE sister would be set as an example for me. Now I work in an office. I feel unhappy, inhibited and suppressed, my life feels empty. The expression on my face most of the time is unemotional, serious, and focused. I tried talking with my mother, telling her that I’m not living my life - her reply was: “Everyone lives this way, and nothing terrible happens to them.” Then once again I begin to see that my own mother is not my friend but an enemy. She thinks that I am rude, that I have poor character, that I’m too callous and insensitive. But she cannot imagine how year after year I had to break myself to fit into her ideal image of a daughter. It’s very difficult to not be yourself, to have to wear a mask day after day. I’ve taken up painting. She said go ahead, paint, no one is stopping you, but do it on your free time as a hobby. When I create something exceptionally beautiful and it is admired and asked for by my friends - and then I feel truly happy!!! But later, ESI’s ‘program’ takes over again and things become grey, lifeless, materially shallow, without any deep meaning or purpose.
– from VK discussions: https://vk.com/topic-38580757_26674174 Both IEI and ESI are introverts, so most likely they will quietly sit together somewhere, like a cafe, and talk, rather than visit places with large crowds of people. Each of them has their own “inner world”, which is quite sufficient for both of them. After getting acquainted, the IEI wins over the trust of the Guardian by his sincerity and his bright ideas and fantasies. The IEI is able to relax the ESI’s state of internal control and alleviate ESI’s tension and stress with affection and tenderness. With him one can dream, talk about ideals, about the eternal and the bright. However, beyond some point the ESI ceases to understand what the IEI is trying to tell him. IEI’s abstract worlds stop being of interest to the ESI, causing only irritation. Problems also arise over some measure of impracticality and carelessness of the IEI. Trying to make Esenin follow some rules the ESI may be faced with a sharp rebuff: “Don’t tell me how to live!” In general, IEIs respond positively to attempts to organize them and give them structure, but the main thing is to not overdo it, which is where the ESI can overstep certain limits causing irritation and frustration for the IEI. ESIs themselves like having control over the situation, but only as long as the ESI doesn’t find him/herself doing everything for his or her partner. In general these are good relations. Conflicts don’t come by frequently. Appreciate your IEIs and they will reply with an incorruptible and pure love.